From what you are saying it sounds like a time when the greater family can be tuned into what is going on in each others lives, helping to build community, which is so important, and can be a time of great joy and thankfulness for what God is doing!

You are more than welcome! I have much to learn as well Bob, so I don’t have all the answers, or even close to that reality, but it is my pleasure to be able to connect with you and help if I am able!

I look forward to hearing from you again!

The church that I’m attending has a time for celebration where congregation is encouraged to share news like:
- new job
- new baby
- new house
- pay rise
- healing
- birthdays
- anniversaries
- when they bring friends
- winning competitions (sport, etc)

So not all too ‘worldly’ things I guess. And to be fair that this can be viewed as things that we do as a family.

I think I just want to know if this is something that The Bible teaches. I read The Bible, but I’m no scholar, so I like to ask questions. Since this is something I found quite frequently in churches (I’ve attended few different ones), I think about it now and then. And your mention of ‘health and wealth’ gospel kinda triggered this conversation.

Thanks for taking time to reply

Sorry Bob, did not get to this part, which was the focus of your question!!! I know, what up I am Jonny King!

Simply, I would point one to 1 Corinthians 10:31, which affirms that even in the most routine of things, we should seek to glorify God! Therefore, why is one commenting on such things. It can be for the previous reasons [as affirmed in my last spiel], which are not correct, but if it points to God’s grace so that it becomes the focus, thereby glorifying God’s gracious provision, then I see no issue, as it relates to vanity.

But, very often, our motivations can be mixed, therefore, if I was giving my testimony, I don’t think I would want to be using this basis as a focused means to share God’s grace in my life. If such is the focus, it may point to something more significant.

Trust this helps!

The short answer is in the context of what you are affirming, No, I don’t think that is a wise or the biblical practice, as it, (1) Puts the focus on material prosperity, where God puts the focus on spiritual prosperity [i.e., maturity in Christ] (2) What does this mean for those who don’t receive these possessions… Not enough faith? [If it is that God blesses people according to His will and way, which paradoxically, is often through suffering as well... then this is a little different] (3) Which means, this seems to move too closely into a retribution theology (and an over-realized eschatology, which brings some of the more material realities/ promises of the future, and try’s to apply them into the present), much like Job’s friends affirmed, which said… Job you are like this because of what you have done, or in your example, one has not received because of what one has done.

While it is true that God is the giver of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17], so in the wisdom of His will, some Christians are more prosperous/ gifted/ talented than others, such has not been the means of basing ones spirituality, is not the criteria by which God defines success, which means it should not be majored upon… Faithfulness to where He has placed one… which is why, unlike often in this world’s system, the sick and debilitated can biblically succeed, as they are faithful where God has called them. Finally, practically, nor should this be the focus when Christians meet together!

Now, while the above might not be the motivation for why the individuals have been asked to testify, I would ask the question whether someone who has suffered, for example, could be asked to do the same thing for the same motivation. If they have, then I would not be so worried, as it is not so much the mention of these things , but why, for what reasons, and the message that one is communicating!

The reason I put the “motivation” factor down is that one may be affirming that God’s grace has been seen in “gracing” me in certain ways and in certain means, which really applies to every believer, but looks different for each individual, which is why the motivation for deciding on the course of action could be due to lack of wisdom, or more problematic, due to an incorrect theology!

Therefore, the big questions for me are (1) Is this normative in the local church setting where you or any other believer is fellowshipping. If it is, then there is a reason, which points to some biblical deformity. (2) If this is part of an individuals personal testimonial narrative, it may be reflective of their growing understanding in God personally… and not the church, which means I respond differently. (3) If it is framed in the context of God’s grace, which is outworked differently for all, which means the focus is on God’s grace, then these material issues are not the focus, but extras in the desire to affirm God’s grace in one’s life, then such is also not an issue.

However, from your question, it seems you are referring more to number 1. If so, I would have reservations about what is transpiring!

Hope this makes some sense and answers your question!

I mean like when a church encourages congregation to give testimony about their success in the world, e.g.: someone bought a new house, get a promotion, business success, pay rise, etc. Is that being vain or is that something that The Bible teaches?

No big deal about my illness. I suffer from polio on my left leg since I was 5. I get on with life just fine

I am sorry to hear about your illness, and I trust that you are coping, and that you have some good support. If it limits your ability to be more mobile, I am sure the internet is a blessing to connect with and through!

If I understand correctly what you are asking [please correct me if I am not], then your question about ‘mansions’ is based on Jesus’ words in John 14:2-3. Andeas Kostenberger [a scholar from the US] states that the context of this metaphor refers to heaven.

Therefore, if one was going up the front and speaking in this context, and using the certainty of a future reception of a mansion, i.e., Heaven, for God’s children, then it represents a biblical picture, and as a reflection of a purpose of metaphors, it can be quite vivid, and reflects what is a glorious future for those in Christ. However, it must be remembered that the term “mansions” or “rooms” as the ESV puts it, is a metaphor. I would be encouraging people to focus on what the metaphor points to, as this is where the meaning resides!

I don’t believe that it is the wrong type of encouragement as long as it reflects such a future reality. Hebrews 11:10 affirms that Abraham’s present faith, at the time of his earthly pilgrimage, had a future perspective, as it contextualised his time on earth!

The only substantial problem I can perceive is if someone has an understanding of these texts that is incorrect, as outworked in their theology and practice, which involves other contexts.

These affirmations about this future hope [see Titus 2:13] should encourage the believer in the present, not merely because of what it represents, but because of who is there, and as individuals who suffer in the present, it can be encouragement to persevere therein!

I trust this gets to the point of your question!

It will encourage some/many in congregation I’m sure, but is it a wrong type of encouragement?

I too have long term physical condition by the way.

I am sorry I have not got back to you sooner, but I am presently at a block course for some study in Theology.

Let me see if I can offer something in reply.

On the homepage, where each new post belongs, they sit under a title header that is referenced in each column with the term “opinion.” Therefore, what is posted is the opinion of I am Jonny King… God willing, this opinion will be both well-informed and well-propounded, but it is important to understand this. I tend to blog mostly off the cuff, and I try to make it both relevant and interesting to read, after all, there can be much to read at times.

In referring to Joel Osteen, the framing of my statement, in referring to getting rid of that Joel Osteen vision when it gets hung and quartered relates to times of trial and suffering (as the context should have affirmed). Read what Michael S. Horton has affirmed in a series that I would also encourage you to read. Here is what he said in the context of suffering…

The “health-and-wealth” gospel that Osteen preaches cannot deal with suffering. It is a theology of glory: the offer of the kingdoms of the world here and now. For those who take this path, it may well be that they will have their best life now. But even now, there is no place for suffering in this quintessentially American religion. Not Christ’s suffering for our sins or our suffering for being united to Christ. In a New York Times interview, Osteen was asked why there is suffering. Although he is correct that we cannot solve this dilemma philosophically, he offered no suggestion that it is solved in historical terms by Christ’s resurrection as the first-fruits of the new creation. “‘The answer is I don’t know,’ Mr. Osteen said. “‘We deal every week with someone whose child got killed, or they lost their job. I don’t understand it. All you can do is let God comfort you and move on. Part of faith is not understanding.’”

Quoted in “A Church That Packs Them In, 16,000 At a Time,” New York Times, July 18, 2005

Did you catch the line about why we suffer… “I don’t know.” There is much in the Word of God, as Horton makes clear, but also consider the reality of the Fall with the Hope of our soon-to-be redemption that could be spoken of here, there are examples of faithful sufferers, such as Job, with the paradigm that the book affirms for trusting in God… period… the example of Christ, and how He is also used as a paradigm for believers to copy, where suffering is used as a means for both growth and development… then, there are times when all hope is gone… what then… you call out in the words of Psalm 88, the darkest of all Psalms… lastly, what about reflecting on the character of God, the fact that He is our Father.

There will no doubt be other areas that could be affirmed, but I hope you get the message.

Really what Osteen has done is to throw his hands in the air. The reason he has done this is that his theology is deformative, which means that he can not integrate this vital part of all our lives into his worldview, which is why I encouraged readers to move beyond this to a more complete biblical perspective on the challenges and vicissitudes of life.

Therefore, I do not find Joel Osteen’s ministry to be both pragmatically effective in this regard, nor most importantly, to be reflective of a biblical witness to the one walking with suffering in their soul, which is why I can not endorse it.

Don, numbers or adherents are never a determinant as to whether something is right or wrong. God said to Jeremiah, you are going to do My will and preach My Word, and by the way, be incredibly unsuccessful… the key criteria in anything is faithfulness to the revealed will of God, which for us is the truth contained in the Word of God, which is why the sufferer can be successful in God’s eyes, because they can be faithful to where He has placed them, even though the world may think they are pitiful. God also said to Nebuchadnezzar that he was going to be God’s instrument in doing His will… this was no righteous ruler, but God’s will was achieved through this means.

Conversely, ask the adherents of Islam, Mormonism, or even Oprah, who is affirming some kind of spirituality if what they are doing/ following is working, positively affecting their lives. Most will say, “Too Right,” which is why they continue to drink the Kool-aid… this does not make what they believe to be right and should never be used as a means to judge whether something is right or wrong, which means, it should never be used as a “means test” to judge the veracity of the ministry and teaching of Joel Osteen or I am Jonny King’s blog.

Anyway, when all is said and done, an important point to affirm is that God’s working policy is one of grace. He works through frail, fallen human beings… Yes, thankfully, redeemed by grace, but still fraught with a captive disease (for His given time). This does not mean that this releases us from “doing” what is right or mean that we are free from critique or His revealed standard, but it does mean that God works in and through us, in many respects, despite what we are in practice, because of who He has made us positionally… in Christ, which also validates and explains why He can work through those individuals who are not necessarily affirming absolute truth in a given area, or at a given time, because when He views the man, he sees the imputation of Christ that vouchsafes that man’s present and future. This has to be understood in a nuanced way, so that it does not mean something it shouldn’t, as sin has its consequences, but perfection in performance can not be the basis. How far one has to stray is a good question to ponder on.

This also means that in what I am saying, I am not necessarily saying that God has not worked through the man, nor will work through his ministry, but I believe those listening will either grow and otherwise in relation to his correspondence with the truth of God’s Word, which is why I am concerned.

I ask you to read the two quotes that come up when you put your mouse over the 3rd picture of me on the pic-changer, one by Charles Spurgeon and the other by John Murray that express propositionally the difference between truth and error, and how close this can be… and how important is discernment.

I also invite you to read through the links from this website that offers some critiques on Joel Osteen. I have not read through all these articles, but I think they will offer you food for thought.

http://christiannews.co.nz/index.php?s=joel+osteen

I am not writing these comments out of a theory I have just learnt in a book. I have been unwell for some time with a long term illness that even as I attend this course affects and impacts the life that I seek to live. I would love it to go away… I can live with the reasons God’s Word has given me… can Mr Osteen!

I trust you find your times at this blog are both rewarding and edifying.

The problem here is that you have not really done your homework. There are thousands of accounts of people whose faith in God have been strengthened at the worst possible times in their lives by Joel Osteen’s ministry. Your assertion is exactly the opposite of much of the antecdotal evidence, and there has never been a statistical study of this subject. So it’s basically your ‘gut feeling,’ which is fine, but it’s wrong. It sounds like you are really smart, but the assertion you make in the above paragraph doesn’t hold water.