This post is not to be viewed as a thinly veiled attempt to assert and assail with weapons of Mass destruction. Therefore, Please, put the weapon of Mass instruction down!
This really is a simple question, that seeks a simple or not-so-simple answer! I am not on a Crusade-r, although I view myself as a Cantabrian, and I am not looking to start a holy war, well, not that sort of holy war, but I am after the truth (at this point the post-modern begins to snicker at such tomfoolery and arrogance), and I believe that it is worth asking such questions.
As I begin to type this piece, it is late into Tuesday night, the night before the day after that we begin to search for daylight, and head north toward the land of the Druffs, the Tron, readying ourselves for life in the Chute (Parachute people)! However, the subject matter before you is something that has struck me previously as being worthy of at least some minor reflection, and as I am of Wordpress, so, I blog, therefore, I have wanted to offer this platform as a digression for you, the reader, to offer your thinking thoughts on this issue (For the Sorry folks who got lost from another land, and who are wondering what the Gehenna Parachute refers to… Go HERE).
I realise that such discussions can produce more heat than light, but I beg of you one thing in this reflection, which is this, that we righteously reason together. This is not the place to start pamphleteering, while ranting is so ineffective when one can’t see the facial fomenting forthwith, and while such subjects may cause those on either side of Reformation Canyon to throw emotive-encapsulated bombs at the other side, I implore you to state your case without rancor, retribution, or rage.
In other words, I ask you to speak the truth, as you determine it, in love.
Therefore, before I offer some contextual thoughts to this discussion, that, God willing, may provide something for you to gnaw on, or conversely, spit out, in your own commentary on this issue, I do want to state where my presuppositions reside. I am an evangelical conservative Christian, or if such is not shorthand enough, I am a Protest-ant, and such is the context of this them blog. Therefore, the Reformation is my friend, not foe, which means that I view such a movement, and the subsequent re-affirmations>re-clarifications related particularly to topics in the areas of Soteriology (salvation) and Ecclesiology (the Church), as being reflective of a back-to-the-Bible move of God… Soli Deo Gloria style!
What this ultimately means is that a Canyon came into existence many moons ago, and the pertinent question may be framed this way, does this Canyon still exist?
I am want to say that this Canyon is alive…
In light of this, let me lay out some possible positions of why Parachute, an admittedly Evangelical organisation, which states on its site here that “Parachute Music is dedicated to cultivating music that connects people with Jesus,” would seek to incorporate a Catholic Mass, in an event such as this…
Surely such a referenced desire and goal, while being nebulous enough to allow the “Yeah, I include Jesus in my Supermarket of Faiths I hold to” to join the par-tae, this statement is really short-hand for saying that Parachute is pointing to Jesus, as He is the intersection where salvation is found (Acts 4:12). Therefore, it’s all about the Jesus!
With all this in mind, with a desire to connect people to Jesus, as a mega hook-up service, the question still remains as to why Parachute have made this decision, what this says about their understanding of how salvation is found, and who offers it!
Therefore, I offer the following possible reasons for Parachute’s decision…
1) There is no real difference between what Protestants and Catholics believe, Stupid, with Jesus being the center in both faiths! We could call this one, the Group Hug position. After all, both sides of the Reformation divide have so much in common that seems to provide an ecumenical interface, that whatever issues divides these two groups, are only minor and insignificant, which means that both are working toward the same ends, with the same means (like all those different denominations in Protestantism), toward the same Jesus!
Therefore, why shouldn’t there be a Mass at Parachute, this is a Christian event after all!
2) The, “Yes, I know there are differences, but Parachute is all about Jesus.” This position may smell the same as the previous, but it is more pragmatic and post-modern about the doctrinal realities, viewing the language of Jesus as bond enough! Anyway, doctrine divides you modernistic hanger-on-er!
3) The “If we make the fence low enough, more people can get over it,” position! In other words, positively, we see that we can make the most impact for Christ if we gather as many people as we can, and while we accept that there are significant doctrinal differences, there are Christians in the Catholic faith, and anyway, we would like to offer this event as a means to see more religious people made righteous. Jesus ate with Tax-Collectors and Sinner, didn’t he?
4) The, “Show me the Money” view from the condo! If we could convince the Mormons to drop their funny underwear, we would maybe consider providing for them as well… as long as they left their bikes at the gate!
Now these are three possible and one very improbable areas of “justification” for such a decision, you may have a better suggestion for the reason behind Parachute’s decision, but unless you share this with the blogging public, you will have to put up with my Family Force Four!
As we begin to think through some trajectories of reasoning on this issue, let us see if we can’t provide some further illumination…
Firstly, do you have a problem with a synagogue service on the Saturday afternoon at Parachute? Okay, so the simple way out of this is to affirm that Orthodox Judaism rejects the Messiah-ship of Yeshua, Jesus, and you would be right, but what about the Mormon faith or Jehovah’s Witnesses, isn’t Jesus the “main man ” in both of these religious systems? Therefore, does Parachute discriminate at this point? This is a point of conjecture, as they have not affirmed anything as such, but assuming they play the good “historic” Protestant line, what can be affirmed is that Parachute’s position does not center around whether these two religious systems talk a lot about Jesus, but what this talk means. In other words, ugly words like “doctrine,” with biblical subjects like the “Hypostatic Union” are navel-gazed about, as men with pot-belly’s, and poor comb-over form, speak with monolithic monotones with code words, without end, affirming that such really does matter matter (a blast from the Parachute past).
While such a decision may seem to be perfunctory in these two examples, what it should affirm is that deciding if a Catholic Mass should be a part of the Parachute Festival comes down to what either side believe on certain biblically fundamental issues, and are these reconcilable, such as, can Jesus be won in Catholic dogma! Now this is where the fun begins, as the real question is not if Jesus can be won, but does their solution reflect the biblical teaching? If not, then Parachute may need to move to Houston, because we have a problem!
To use another ominous term, we are beginning to talk… dom, dom, dom dom dom… THEOLOGY.
This is not the place to dive into the deep end on the doctrinal differences between Protestantism and Catholicism (What a Woose!), which in some respects are neither plain nor simple, and there are places on-line that deal effectively with these debates. For example, CARM have these two resources on the Roman Catholic view of Justification and the Mass and the sacrifice of Christ, which highlight the nuances in this debate, but it has been generally agreed… emphasis on “has”… past tense… from a Protestant perspective, which I hold to being the true perspective, that on such matters involving such language as sola gratia and sola fide (See Galatians 1:6-24 for the Word), there is a Canyon between Protestantism and Catholicism that can not be dogmatically or confessionally bridged. In other words, we are talking about two different Gospels! If such a position corresponds to the real life realities of both traditions, then neither the twain shall meet, and these faiths are not on speaking terms!
I have recently read an extremely irenic book by ex-Catholic, Chris Castaldo, titled, Holy Ground: Walking with Jesus as a Former Catholic, where he affirms that one of the best book on the doctrinal differences is, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences, by Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie, which should give the reader more in-depth treatment of the issues. Even though both authors are Evangelicals, Geisler received his Ph.D. from a Catholic Institution, so is familiar with the church’s teachings. Yes, I also realise that many Evangelicals have converted to Catholicism! But pause for a moment here… doesn’t the language used in this recent statement set the record straight on the issue. If Catholicism and Protestantism were in the same family, no conversion is needed, yet take a look at sites where these things are affirmed, and you will hear comments welcoming these individuals, “Home,” or, ”To the True Church,” with the implication being pretty clear, the other is… false!
I should also point out that I have not read this title, but someone who has and reviewed this on Amazon, is Antoine Maalouf. When he reviewed the differences that these authors note, read where some of these reside…
In the second part comes the area of doctrinal differences. Here the authors discuss the apocrypha (is it sound to include the apocrypha as canon of the old testament?), the scripture (what should dictate our doctrines: scripture alone or scripture plus tradition?), the infallibility of the Pope (is he the earthly head of the church with infallible decisions?), the doctrine of justification (are we saved by our faith alone, or by faith and works?), the sacraments (did Christ establish seven or two sacraments, and are they means of receiving grace or simply symbols of grace?), the system of the church (does the new testament establish priesthood or does it teach that all believers are priests and thus can approach God directly?) , Mariology (Is Mary our mediatrix, co-redemptrix, queen of heaven? Is it biblical to pray to her, to saints, to venerate relics?), and finally the purgatory (Heaven/Hell, or Heaven/Purgatory/Hell?). (Emphasis Mine)
One can believe and affirm that the doctrine of Justification in the Catholic Church correctly corresponds to the message in the Word of God, however, I would beg to differ. However, what should be noted is that these systems are not identical, and while I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise, trying to make them as such, obviates their legitimate claims for holding the truth. Paul makes it clear that there is a Gospel line in the sand, and if these traditions are not identical, one is wrong!
If such is a true picture, what should be Parachute’s response, in light of what they are standing for, and what they want to achieve?…
This is where you, the Reader, take the leading, rather than merely, the reading role.
What do you think?
However, with a quick shuffle of my hands, let me switch back to yours truly, and offer you some more grist for you to grind in that Mill.
Do you think this is an area, like cultural/ moral issues, such as the abortion issue, where both traditions hold pretty much identical emphases, based on their belief in the sanctity of the human life? Therefore, in such contexts, partnering together is generally viewed as being a non-issue, even though there is an acceptance that there are distinctives in both traditions. Might be a bit of a rough analogy, but the point is that in such a decision, the Parachute Festival, such is relegated to an area where it no longer is viewed as a first order matter.
In a recent issue of the 9marks online journal, J. Mack Stiles, in the context of the work of InterVarsity, spoke about some details that relates to this discussion. Here is what he said…
What’s happening to InterVarsity? Has the fellowship become so thoughtless about its theology that it now rejects the solas of the Reformation? I understand that Catholics can be born again. I am happy to partner with Catholics on moral issues in the political arena such as religious liberty.
One may perceive where his trajectory is heading, however, he finishes off this paragraph with the following, and potentially significant words…
But to partner with Roman Catholics in gospel outreach is a confusion of the gospel. Thoughtful Catholics agree. So, why is IV confused? I worry that it is because IV is muddled about the gospel. (Emphasis Mine).
These seem to be seminal words in this thought process. What say you?
In light of these words, if this is a Gospel issue, and Parachute want their Massive Event to be Gospel-centered, even as a Gospel Catalyst, and considering some of the content, it would seem to be a warranted belief, are they not affirming that justification is equally found in both Catholicism and Protestantism? If not, then seeking to get those from a Catholic context to come along with a Gospel saving purpose in mind, would seem to be obliterated by such an accommodation, as what are they being saved from and to? Once again, this should not be construed as affirming that there are not Catholics who are biblically saved, but it is affirming that such a reality is despite the teachings contained in Catholic dogma!
The fact that such a reality is transpiring is certainly communicating a message, what do you think this message entails? Getting back to our Family Force Four near the beginning of this growing post, it would seem that numbers 1-3 are all in play, in some shape and form!
Has Parachute put them-self in a theological corner with this decision? This is assuming you agree with the perspective in this post, but I am inclined to believe so!
Now the Floor really is, entirely yours, as I am off to Parachute. I am thankful for Parachute and believe that they can do great things for the Gospel, given their platform. The question really is, will they… continue?
Party on Dude!
Anyone got a spare door that you won’t mind if a couple of nail holes are added? You never know it might just come in handy! Now to finish that list… 91… 92… sounds good!
What Say You?
Until Next Time
I am Jonny King
February 10th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
Meaning to post on this topic for a while but have been busy. Have a spare minute or two so might as well give my 2 cents worth.
My thoughts are this and they will be random as I cant be bothered thinking too much.
1. Parachute probably did it to get more people through the gate.
2. Parachute probably did it without really looking into the differnces into Catholic belief and their own.
3. In saying that I think there can be a big differnce in what Catholics believe ‘at grass roots level’ and what their doctrine states. Hope you get my drift with that point. We also must remeber that the Catholic church is very big and has many different groups that emphasise different aspects.
Take this example;
Imagine I go to a new Evangelical church in my town and start going their on a regular basis. If I worship there and enjoy the church does that mean that I adhere to EVERY belief under that organisation?? Would be interested in your thoughts Jonny King.
Ozy Mandias´s last blog ..Valentines Day Advice – Red, Smelly and Dead
February 11th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
Hey Oz!
I would think you are busy getting into the new school year Mr Mandias! Blogging time must be of a premium for you!
Now, let me get to your question. I can’t promise this will be brief… or some might say very illuminating… but you asked for it Oz!
To comment on your analogy, if you, Mr Mandias were to go along to a new Evangelical church, I would assume that the language involved in announcing this church would provide some indication as to the context of where you were going to worship. If you to head a long to a Baptist church, there would be some expectation from yourself about the nature of this church (I would think). Yes, you may be surprised when you turn up, but words signify or point to something, which is the content of their meaning, and this is generally formed by their usage, which can grow and develop over time.
Therefore, when Parachute announce a Catholic Mass, there is a content of meaning that these terms point to, and should those who attend this event, find that the individual in charge of this is none other than Bishop Brian Tamaki, there would be some confused expressions… and some might say some poorer punters… which means it is pretty clear what Parachute were putting on!
The real question than is this: Is this a problem, and more than that, what would constitute a problem? Let me answer it this way…
Now in terms of the expectation of agreeing with everything if you were to intend, which you referenced… if one can only be rightly called a Christian if one agrees with everything in a given set of teaching, than you would be in trouble if you didn’t, in the end, adhere to every belief. If you were heading along as a new believer, you may very well swallow all that they teach. However, say you go there as a biblically committed cessationist… one who believes that certain “sign gifts” ceased in the first-century… If you realised after a number of weeks that they were mildly charismatic, if you did not agree with this, would it be a problem? Yes, you may find that the outworking of how they worship and live for God does no fit who you are, and you may not agree that it is biblically correct or sound, however, there would be no salvation issue with you continuing to attend, as this is not a Gospel issue that divides. Otherwise, either charismatic or cessationist Christians really aren’t saved!
This last affirmation highlights an important point, which is this: there are some beliefs in the Christian faith that “Christians” disagree on, which are disagreements within the family, which also underscores and explains why there are so many different denominations. Is the Catholic church just one of these different Christian denominations? The key to answering this question is to answer another one, which is this…what beliefs must one hold to be a Christian?… Or, another way of stating it is, what does the Bible teach as to how one must be saved?
In the post, the point I was making was that in Catholic dogma, it is my understanding that they teach a different Gospel to not only what we believe in Protestantism, but as taught in the Word of God. If this is so, the Catholic church holds to a different Gospel, and Paul makes it clear in Galatians 1 that a different Gospel is a false Gospel!
If such is true, there is really only one conclusion that one can draw. The problem is that such does not sound palatable in this day and age, but it really is not a personal issue at all, as it comes down to what these two belief systems adhere to as it relates to getting inside the group, and as far more informed people than myself who have debated together on this issue affirm, on this issue there is a divide, and if the pure Gospel message is that important that Paul would say that if he or even an angel would bring a different message, then he instructed the Galatians and all those post this period to view such a message and such messengers as accursed, then, I don’t see how the Word of God allows us any wiggle room!
Now if other people are reading this comment, then I realise that some affirm that the New Perspective on Paul and even the Federal Vision in what most accept as being in the tradition of Reformed Theology may throw a different light on how one is to understand this debate, but I am not convinced!
Now, I have done enough talking Oz… what say you?